timing of NRMP vs Carms match for 2012

[tomato7]

I have heard that for 2012, Carms match will be after NRMP (US) match. This year Carms was before NRMP. Is there a rule that says they alternate every year? I know that Carms first iteration match will be on march 5th 2012 and I called up NRMP but they said they won't know the exact date until June, yet I have read on the internet that for 2012 carms will be after NRMP match? can anyone varify this? Thanks

[Lactic Folly]

There is no rule for alternation that I am aware of. CaRMS has been before NRMP every year in recent memory, except for that one year that CaRMS was delayed due to SARS. Where did you read about the change for 2012?

[tomato7]

I remember reading it on a forum but since it was a forum I thought it was a mistake but I just heard the samething from an american graduate who matched into Carms this year. I did some search and you are right, it seems like at least for the past 5 years carms has been before nrmp. I hope this is nothing more than a rumor. If you find anything else keep me posted.

[Ian Wong]

The CaRMS match date is typically set before the US match date. A side effect of this is so that if you apply to both matches, you will most likely end up in Canada. The two systems are linked such that whichever country you match in first, you get removed from the other match. I think CaRMS tries to set their match date ahead of the US one in order to retain graduates in Canada.

As a side note, I applied to radiology in both countries in 2004, the year where the CaRMS match date got delayed and pushed back so the US match day came first. I ended up matching to the US as a result. The only way for me to have had a chance to match into a Canadian radiology program would have been to not submit my US radiology rank list (I had interviewed at 20 US programs, which is usually ample to guarantee a match).

The bottom line is that CaRMS and NRMP will set the match dates the way they do, and there's nothing you can do about it but make the best of the situation.

Ian

[2011matriculant]

I know that if you are a Canadian citizen attending a LCME accredited medical school in the United States, you are eligible for the first round of CARMS. For the US match (NRMP), would anyone be able to explain how Canadians studying at US medical schools are treated? Are they treated equal to American citizens studying at US medical schools for NRMP? Thanks!

[Ian Wong]

I matched into a US program through NRMP applying as a Canadian citizen from a Canadian med school.

My opinion is that if you are applying to US programs as a Canadian citizen coming from a US med school, you would have an advantage over an applicant such as myself (no surprise there).

However, you might have a subtle disadvantage compared with a US citizen coming from a US med school applying to a US residency program.

The difference being that as a Canadian citizen, you need to get a visa in order to train in ANY US residency. Getting that visa requires an extra step on the behalf of the US training program and their Graduate Medical Education (GME) office. Even if you did your med school in the US, you would still need a visa. One advantage that US med graduates have is that in order to attend a US med school as a Canadian, you need an F-1 student visa. That visa has something called an OPT clause (Optional Practical Training), which you can use to do your PGY-1 residency year. That means that you don't have to struggle to get a J-1 or H1B visa between Match Day and July 1 in order to start your residency on time.

Instead, you are on the F-1 visa throughout US med school, get the OPT extension to do your PGY-1, and then during your PGY-1, you can work with your residency program's GME office to get either a J-1 visa or and H1B visa.

Now, if you are a dual US/Canadian citizen, or have a US green card, then you don't need a visa, and you would be on full equal terms with any US citizen applicant.

Ian

[2011matriculant]

Thanks, Ian. Your insight is really much appreciated. I know a lot of elements factor into who gets which residency but, in your opinion, would you say then that due to the visa issue some US residency program directors might actually prefer an international medical school graduate (e.g., Carribbean) who is a US citizen over a Canadian graduating from a US allopathic medical school? (all things being equal in terms of grades, USMLE scores, reference letters)

There was an article recently in the New York Times about the dramatic increase in American students studying at offshore Caribbean medical schools so I would be interested to hear whether you think there would be any implications for Canadian students (attending med school in the US) looking to match into US residency programs.

[DubZteR]

Originally Posted by 2011matriculant

Thanks, Ian. Your insight is really much appreciated. I know a lot of elements factor into who gets which residency but, in your opinion, would you say then that due to the visa issue some US residency program directors might actually prefer an international medical school graduate (e.g., Carribbean) who is a US citizen over a Canadian graduating from a US allopathic medical school? (all things being equal in terms of grades, USMLE scores, reference letters)

Short answer is No. US grad > Carribean grad regardless of citizenship.

I would be interested to hear whether you think there would be any implications for Canadian students (attending med school in the US) looking to match into US residency programs.

Again .... No

[51stCenturyFox]

My roommate and I were discussion this date issue. Suppose a Canadian student from a Canadian med school prefers doing residency in the States, but also applies to CaRMS for backup. If the CaRMS date is always before the NRMP date, then the student is pretty much stuck in Canada - unless he/she doesn't apply to CaRMS at all. Is there a possibility for "pre-match" for American residency programs? If so, what kind of schools/programs offer pre-match to Canadian internationals - lower tier vs. high tier (Penn? Harvard)?

Granted, this whole discussion came up because my roommate's brilliant (future doctor) sister has an American fiance at Harvard.

[Ian Wong]

That's sort of the whole point behind why CaRMS always tries to set their match date ahead of the US match; they want to keep as many Canadians in Canada rather than have them go to the US.

Most high end US programs don't use the prematch system, simply because they have no shortage of applicants. Places that do tend to use prematches are (and this is a generalization, so please don't take offense) generally less competitive specialties in less competitive locations. Most people that prematch into these spots are IMG's from outside of North America.

The reason that these programs use the prematch is that they are less competitive to get into, and may have even gone partially unfilled in past years. By offering prematches to their interviewees, they are often able to get people to commit to their program even if that may not have been the interviewee's true #1 choice. Many applicants would rather take a sure position rather than gamble on going unmatched.

A few high end US programs may take people from outside the match, but these are typically the super-high end IMG's who often have been slaving away in low-paid research positions for that institution for a few years. Getting them the residency spot is sort of a pay-back.

Ian