PA Salary

[medical15]

The 2011 financial disclosure came out recently. As far as I can tell, there is one PA at Sunnybrook making 124,000.

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/2012/index.html

[jerkstore]

Holy radiologist salary batman.

[xngn8r]

The PA probably works 80 hours a week there.

[fskatergirl]

That is the highest number you will see. She is an American-trained PA and was the first PA hired at Sunnybrook. She also works with the University of Toronto PA Program to set up placements at Sunnybrook. As well, she is the Vice President of the Canadian Association of Physician Assistants.

I believe that the minimum salary for a PA in Ontario is 75,000. Most civilian PAs start close to this amount. The highest salary that I know of for a non-military Canadian-trained PA is $109,000 and this person decided to go way up North. If it's not obvious, there is some financial incentive to go up North where help is needed the most.

[PAstudent]

That is the highest number you will see. She is an American-trained PA and was the first PA hired at Sunnybrook. She also works with the University of Toronto PA Program to set up placements at Sunnybrook. As well, she is the Vice President of the Canadian Association of Physician Assistants.

I believe that the minimum salary for a PA in Ontario is 75,000. Most civilian PAs start close to this amount. The highest salary that I know of for a non-military Canadian-trained PA is $109,000 and this person decided to go way up North. If it's not obvious, there is some financial incentive to go up North where help is needed the most.

That is not the highest number you will see. That is appropriate compensation for an emerg PA and, in fact, on the low end for an experienced emerg pa. If Zlata (the PA in question) were still in the USA, she would be making a lot more money than that. She is a wonderful person and a good clinician. In my opinion she is being underpaid. She works the same number of shifts as the staff physicians and, like them, has teaching and research duties. Also, she coordinates much of the learning in the emerg and performs all her duties with grace.

As for starting salaries for PAs, most people I know in the first two classes from Mac are making a lot more than 75gs, at least 5 people having started at about $90,000.

[PA Bound]

What cities/towns are PAs working in?

Thanks.

[PAstudent]

What cities/towns are PAs working in?

Thanks.

Big and small, all throughout Ontario :)

[medical15]

Those that graduated and started off at 90,000 did they take extra courses or something? how do you start at 90,000?

[PAstudent]

Those that graduated and started off at 90,000 did they take extra courses or something? how do you start at 90,000?

$90,000.00 is a an appropriate starting salary for many specialties. Many PAs start higher than that. That's just what PAs make.

[fskatergirl]

That is not the highest number you will see. That is appropriate compensation for an emerg PA and, in fact, on the low end for an experienced emerg pa. If Zlata (the PA in question) were still in the USA, she would be making a lot more money than that. She is a wonderful person and a good clinician. In my opinion she is being underpaid. She works the same number of shifts as the staff physicians and, like them, has teaching and research duties. Also, she coordinates much of the learning in the emerg and performs all her duties with grace.

As for starting salaries for PAs, most people I know in the first two classes from Mac are making a lot more than 75gs, at least 5 people having started at about $90,000.

Yes, I am aware that there are PAs in the US making ~150,000. Salary will obviously increase with experience. By "highest salary that you will see" I just mean that I do not know of any other PA's in Canada making more than that amount. I will not speak about military PAs because I have no idea how they are paid. Whether her salary is reasonable for the duties that she performs is another debate.

[PAstudent]

Yes, I am aware that there are PAs in the US making ~150,000. Salary will obviously increase with experience. By "highest salary that you will see" I just mean that I do not know of any other PA's in Canada making more than that amount. I will not speak about military PAs because I have no idea how they are paid. Whether her salary is reasonable for the duties that she performs is another debate.

I am talking about Canadian PAs. There are many making more than that.

[fskatergirl]

I am talking about Canadian PAs. There are many making more than that.

Okay - we obviously have different sources of information.

In one of your previous posts on this forum you posted that "the lowest (salary) is $75,000.00 and the highest I know of for certain right now is $109,000.00. (although I understand there are actually PAs in Ontario making about $150,000.00 already I can't substantiate this)". I believe I said something similar in this thread. If you're able to substantiate the 150K claim now, that's great, but with my limited exposure to date, I cannot.

The main point that I am trying to make is that her salary is probably not the norm in terms of Canadian-trained civilian PAs at the present time (granted, many of these people have only been working for < 1.5 years and their salaries will likely continue to increase). If it is, than she really ought to be paid more.

[PAstudent]

Okay - we obviously have different sources of information. I'm not trying to argue, the main point that I am trying to make is that her salary is probably not the norm in terms of Canadian-trained civilian PAs at the present time.

We don't know for certain what the norm is at this point. We only have individual data points. It will take a good number of years before we have solid data.

[fskatergirl]

We don't know for certain what the norm is at this point. We only have individual data points. It will take a good number of years before we have solid data.

Yes - this is why I used a statement of probability...inherent in that is uncertainty.

[medical15]

I'm a bit confused. So after you completed the PA program at Mac, do you take more courses to specialize if you want to work in Emergency?

[PAstudent]

I'm a bit confused. So after you completed the PA program at Mac, do you take more courses to specialize if you want to work in Emergency?

No, most PAs go straight into work. There are always short certifications over a few days (like ACLS or ultrasound stuff) that one can do. But, in general, the whole point of PA training is to create a polyvalent generalist clinician who is practice-ready to work under supervision. Essentially, a graduating PA should be at a similar level in terms of skills and knowledge to a new PGY1 and is expected to function in a similar fashion, over time getting more autonomy as they learn on the job and through continuous reading and application of skills.

That said, there are PA residencies in the USA, with emergency medicine being a popular 12-18 month post-PA training program. They tend to be similar in rotation schedules to the CCFP 1 year emerg program. Notably at Johns Hopkins
(http://www.hopkinsbayview.org/emresidency) and Cornell
(http://web.me.com/brooks16pa/Cornell_EMPA/Home.html).

EM PA residencies are usually about 12 months long and typically include
several months of adult and pediatric emergency medicine as well as
several month to two month long rotations in ICU, anaesthesia,
orthopedics, trauma, cardiology, and sometimes others.

A concentrated year of residency aimed at the development of PA
emergency medicine specialists provides for a faster learning curve
with more structure.

All of that said, the vast majority of emerg PAs I know went straight into it out of PA school.

Hope that helps!

[JustMe]

No, most PAs go straight into work. There are always short certifications over a few days (like ACLS or ultrasound stuff) that one can do. But, in general, the whole point of PA training is to create a polyvalent generalist clinician who is practice-ready to work under supervision. Essentially, a graduating PA should be at a similar level in terms of skills and knowledge to a new PGY1 and is expected to function in a similar fashion, over time getting more autonomy as they learn on the job and through continuous reading and application of skills.

That said, there are PA residencies in the USA, with emergency medicine being a popular 12-18 month post-PA training program. They tend to be similar in rotation schedules to the CCFP 1 year emerg program. Notably at Johns Hopkins
(http://www.hopkinsbayview.org/emresidency) and Cornell
(http://web.me.com/brooks16pa/Cornell_EMPA/Home.html).

EM PA residencies are usually about 12 months long and typically include
several months of adult and pediatric emergency medicine as well as
several month to two month long rotations in ICU, anaesthesia,
orthopedics, trauma, cardiology, and sometimes others.

A concentrated year of residency aimed at the development of PA
emergency medicine specialists provides for a faster learning curve
with more structure.

All of that said, the vast majority of emerg PAs I know went straight into it out of PA school.

Hope that helps!

Let me begin by saying that I don't know nearly as much as I should and would like to about PA's (from what I've heard I think the idea behind them is great!).

But... by the time someone is a PGY1 he/she has usually completed a 4 year undergrad (often in a life science), 2 years of preclerkship, 2 years of crazy hours in clerkship, and has passed internationally recognized medical exams. Saying that a newly graduated PA operates with the same knowledge and skill is not only incorrect, it's quite disrespectful.

As allied health professionals, we all need to work together within our capacities and we definitely need to respect all colleagues' knowledge, skill, and experience. However, we also need to be careful not to overstep. If everyone had the same skillset, we wouldn't need diverse teams with different perspectives.

This isn't meant to start any sort of turf-war... your comment just stood out to me. I wouldn't touch the salary debate with a 29 ft pole :)

[PAstudent]

But... by the time someone is a PGY1 he/she has usually completed a 4 year undergrad (often in a life science), 2 years of preclerkship, 2 years of crazy hours in clerkship, and has passed internationally recognized medical exams. Saying that a newly graduated PA operates with the same knowledge and skill is not only incorrect, it's quite disrespectful.


Hi JustMe,

Thank you for your enthusiastic response. However, I never said what you claim I said and, what is more, your description of MDs deserves some comment. Thus:

1) Do not put words in my mouth; I didn't say "same" I said "similar."

2) MD students at McMaster complete about 15 months of preclerkship and then 16 months of clerkship. PA students complete about 12 months of preclerkship and then 12 months of clerkship. The PA students take many of the same exams as the MD students.

3) PAs also have licensing/certification exams to pass.

4)Most PA students have also usually completed previous university work in the life sciences. I have an Honours Bachelor of Health Sciences from McMaster University and most of my classmates also have completed life science based bachelor degrees. In the USA and at Manitoba, the majority of PA Programs are now graduate-level, thus requiring a completed undergraduate degree.

5) It is entirely appropriate to state that a graduating PA should be at a similar level with a graduating MD. That is the entire point of PA training, 80 per cent of medical school in in 75% of the time. It works. It has worked in the USA for 50 years and it is working in Canada.

[lostintime]

Interesting, if a graduating PA works at a "similar level" as a graduating MD, then why doesn't everyone just be PA's and have 1-2 supervisor MD's? We should totally be graduating a huge stock of PA's to MD's at some crazy 9:1 ratio then.

Why not just skip all the funding that the government is allocating for medical student training? PA training is obviously only 2 years and a lot less.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but trying to be logical here whenever try to argue that NP's or PA's are "very similar" or "almost as good" as MD's. If that is the case, then you should just lobby for the government to decrease med student enrollment and significantly increase PA and NP spots. Because if there is a much cheaper way to train "almost" the same level of competency as you are arguing, why bother through our rigorous training? What is the point?

[lostintime]

And we've had lectures by radiologists who are VERY skeptical about people who take weekend courses in ultrasound and think they can make clinical decisions on FAST....for very sick and crashing patients in the emerg.

[PAstudent]

There is a reason why the Government of Ontario is funding/pushing PAs so much. For the same reason Manitoba did it and the same reason it works in the USA. Govt officials realized that they can pay a PA less money to do most of the same work as an MD and it costs less to train a PA.

Interesting, if a graduating PA works at a "similar level" as a graduating MD, then why doesn't everyone just be PA's and have 1-2 supervisor MD's? We should totally be graduating a huge stock of PA's to MD's at some crazy 9:1 ratio then.

Why not just skip all the funding that the government is allocating for medical student training? PA training is obviously only 2 years and a lot less.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but trying to be logical here whenever try to argue that NP's or PA's are "very similar" or "almost as good" as MD's. If that is the case, then you should just lobby for the government to decrease med student enrollment and significantly increase PA and NP spots. Because if there is a much cheaper way to train "almost" the same level of competency as you are arguing, why bother through our rigorous training? What is the point?

[lostintime]

Lol nice and who exactly is calling these shots and and deciding whether the quality of service is "most of the same work"? And what are they exactly basing this upon? Where do you draw the line anyway, if you're going to make a crash course, might as well just keep shortening the training time. We should just cut back on residency training too, I mean, I'm sure surgeons who train for 1 year less will do "most of the same work" as well. Heck, why not make it 2 years less.

[PAstudent]

Lol nice and who exactly is calling these shots and and deciding whether the quality of service is "most of the same work"? And what are they exactly basing this upon? Where do you draw the line anyway, if you're going to make a crash course, might as well just keep shortening the training time. We should just cut back on residency training too, I mean, I'm sure surgeons who train for 1 year less will do "most of the same work" as well. Heck, why not make it 2 years less.


I encourage you to review the literature (in other threads in this forum you can see links to specific studies) on PAs. There is good research evidence to support PAs.

[lostintime]

I just find it interesting how PA's will integrate into a system where their role by definition doesn't allow them to practice independently, but how they will work with that idea when there is the mentality that they are just as capable as a MD. One's training is not only dictated by the number of hours they work, but also the expectations that are made of them and quality of training. From personal experience, med students and PA students I have observed were NOT subjected to the same expectations when on call or during a rotation. Similarly, which medical exams are PA students writing that are the same ones that med students write? Do they write the LMCC's?

To be fair, the PA students I have worked have been awesome people and very bright. But honestly, if I was in practice in the future, I would worry about hiring a PA to work for me who thought they were just as good as a MD. Not because of pride issues or whatever, but because I find it a safety concern. For any individual who is not allowed to practice independently, you wonder about safety....whether they will check with you when it is beyond the scope of their knowledge/experience or just brush it off because they think they are fully capable of handling it (when they are in fact not).

[PAstudent]

1) There are plenty of PAs who are better clinicians than MDs, plenty of MDs who are better clinicians than PAs, and plenty of bad PAs and plenty of bad MDs.

2)At the DeGroote School of medicine the expectations of PA clerks are the same as for MD clerks. Indeed, for me, on certain rotations, even more so as I was expected to function like a pgy1.

3)As I already said in other threads on here that I encourage you to read through: at the DeGroote School of Medicine PAs take the PPI and CAEs. It would seem to me that you are unfamiliar with PA training at McMaster.


You seem to have some interest in arguing and debating things about which you are not very-well informed. I have said many times that I am here to help answer questions about PAs and not to debate people. I have merely stated facts that one can check fairly easily. I'm not going to continue this. I encourage you to read-up on PAs.


I just find it interesting how PA's will integrate into a system where their role by definition doesn't allow them to practice independently, but how they will work with that idea when there is the mentality that they are just as capable as a MD. One's training is not only dictated by the number of hours they work, but also the expectations that are made of them and quality of training. From personal experience, med students and PA students I have observed were NOT subjected to the same expectations when on call or during a rotation. Similarly, which medical exams are PA students writing that are the same ones that med students write? Do they write the LMCC's?

To be fair, the PA students I have worked have been awesome people and very bright. But honestly, if I was in practice in the future, I would worry about hiring a PA to work for me who thought they were just as good as a MD. Not because of pride issues or whatever, but because I find it a safety concern. For any individual who is not allowed to practice independently, you wonder about safety....whether they will check with you when it is beyond the scope of their knowledge/experience or just brush it off because they think they are fully capable of handling it (when they are in fact not).

[lostintime]

I'm not trying to debate either but I don't believe in giving people misleading information either.

1) Just because there may be some bad doctors, doesn't make it right to make blanket statements. There are some bad apples in every profession, but the current status is that MD's are supposed to be better clinicians than PA's based on the rigor and length of training.

2) I'm not sure about Mac because I haven't encountered PA's there but this is obviously not the case in other schools, and PA's are being trained not only at McMaster but other schools as well, so to make blanket statements about PA's, you have to look at the training of PA's everywhere. I hope someone who has done medicine at Mac can input as well about the exepctations of clerks vs. PA students at Mac and confirm that PA students are treated as PGY1's yet clerks aren't even treated as PGY1's? Quite interesting.

3) They make take some exams that med students at Mac take? No idea about Mac, but this is NOT standardized across the country and is hardly a representation of the rigors that the average Canadian medical student requires to graduate as a MD. If they can do LMCC's, then that's a different story and I would argue that just because someone can do ONE exam doesn't say enough about being constantly evaluated during your medical training.

[PAstudent]

Your opinion is that MDs are supposed to be better clinicians than PAs. I don't disagree that becoming a physician takes a greater length and depth of training. I do disagree that simply by being an MD and not a PA that one would be a better clinician. And when it comes to the greater length and depth of training, I would argue that it is really residency that makes the physician. Yes, there are, in general more hoops to jump through to get become an MD than a PA but, really, it is residency that makes the difference.


Also, PA students at Mac are NOT treated like PGY1s. PA clerks are, as I stated earlier, treated the same as MD clerks. You, once again, are putting words in my mouth. I said that I, personally, was asked to function like a pgy1. I will clarify this, that was on one core rotation and, while some other PA clerks were asked to do the same on that rotation in the past it is my understanding that this is now changing. This all has to do with the newness of PAs and people now knowing what to do with PA students all the time.

I'm not trying to debate either but I don't believe in giving people misleading information either.

1) Just because there may be some bad doctors, doesn't make it right to make blanket statements. There are some bad apples in every profession, but the current status is that MD's are supposed to be better clinicians than PA's based on the rigor and length of training.

2) I'm not sure about Mac because I haven't encountered PA's there but this is obviously not the case in other schools, and PA's are being trained not only at McMaster but other schools as well, so to make blanket statements about PA's, you have to look at the training of PA's everywhere. I hope someone who has done medicine at Mac can input as well about the exepctations of clerks vs. PA students at Mac and confirm that PA students are treated as PGY1's yet clerks aren't even treated as PGY1's? Quite interesting.

3) They make take some exams that med students at Mac take? No idea about Mac, but this is NOT standardized across the country and is hardly a representation of the rigors that the average Canadian medical student requires to graduate as a MD. If they can do LMCC's, then that's a different story and I would argue that just because someone can do ONE exam doesn't say enough about being constantly evaluated during your medical training.

[lostintime]

Unless there's something completely wrong with the residency program, there is no reason why an MD physician should NOT be better than a PA. Of course you are going to get exceptions wherever you go, e.g. superstar grad student with even better research ideas than a professor, but when you make blanket statements, you look at the AVERAGE MD and AVERAGE PA. If you still can't believe that MD's are on the whole better clinicians than PA's, then again, I repeat that I am concerned about safety issues in the future if this mentality is there and not knowing how much you don't know.

Not going to comment about Mac but again, it would be interested to hear what someone from the medicine has to say about this.

[PAstudent]

Unless there's something completely wrong with the residency program, there is no reason why an MD physician should NOT be better than a PA. Of course you are going to get exceptions wherever you go, e.g. superstar grad student with even better research ideas than a professor, but when you make blanket statements, you look at the AVERAGE MD and AVERAGE PA. If you still can't believe that MD's are on the whole better clinicians than PA's, then again, I repeat that I am concerned about safety issues in the future if this mentality is there and not knowing how much you don't know.

Not going to comment about Mac but again, it would be interested to hear what someone from the medicine has to say about this.

Lostintime,

If you actually believe that by being an MD one is automatically a better clinician than people who are not MDs you need to rethink this and perhaps get a bit more involved with interprofessionalism. There are plenty of nurses, OTs, PTs, podiatrists, DOs, and a myriad of other health professionals amongst the ranks of which there are some some wonderful clinicians. Your words could be perceived as both insulting and disrespectful.

[medical15]

please keep this on topic with salaries. thanks. -- there is also one other PA on the list with 103,000

[dy727]

what do you mean by a clinician?

do you mean someone who interacts well with a patient, communicates well, delivers news in an effective manner, knows to show empathy etc?

or do you mean someone who can form correct DDx, devise treatment plans etc?

by the first definition, for sure other professionals are probably on par with MDs

but by the latter definition, esp. when you go into specialties, MDs with residency training will probably be better 'clinicians' because they probably have had more exposure and training and possess a high level of clinical acuity in the area (understanding of pathophysiology, diagnostics etc)

[lostintime]

what do you mean by a clinician?

do you mean someone who interacts well with a patient, communicates well, delivers news in an effective manner, knows to show empathy etc?

or do you mean someone who can form correct DDx, devise treatment plans etc?

by the first definition, for sure other professionals are probably on par with MDs

but by the latter definition, esp. when you go into specialties, MDs with residency training will probably be better 'clinicians' because they probably have had more exposure and training and possess a high level of clinical acuity in the area (understanding of pathophysiology, diagnostics etc)

Yes I completely agree. Great post.

Secondly, I think that to achieve great interprofessionalism, the first thing is to have clear roles and expectations of each member. Haziness does not help anyone.