doubting the debt

[seonagh]

Hello all,
Love these forums!!

I'm in the premeditating premed stage as a non-trad student. I'm 29 working a non-fulfilling career that has come close to sucking the life and dreams out of me altogether. My decision to go for it at my age is based on a realization of this being my one life to live and for me, medicine has been the one constant dream I had come to expect I would never achieve.

I want to emphasize that I would never be considering medicine only for the money. That said, with the financial stress that my husband and I will assume over the course of 3yrs undergrad and the 4yrs of med school plus residency, am I crazy? I have always assumed that the relative salary of a doctors would allow me to confidently pay back the loans after residency and go on to live a rewarding life that includes some modest financial comfort.

I'm seeing website after website (mostly US based mind you) that emphasize the lack of appropriate compensation for doctors considering the debt load we are faced with. Again, just to cover the point and avoid the "don't get into it for the money" responses, I know that 9 years of hard work would never be worth money alone unless I was going to get George Clooney's salary at the end of it all. What I'm talking about, is the sanity of a 29 year old with a lowish paying career (30Kish) taking on the kind of debt that medical school requires. I look at this as a return on investment issue combined with the reward of doing something you love. Reality being what it is, however, to study and work one's heart out for 9 years only to be in financial ruins at the end is not sane. I like to think that the potential compensation will at least see us pay off the debt load in a reasonable time frame and have the ability to live comfortably afterwards. If this is a pipe dream I want to be able to weigh that fact.

I plan to pay as we go with the undergrad since I intend to keep my current job working nights but I will leave that job when med school begins and we will down to one income and the inevitable loans for med school itself.

thanks,
Sheena

[PDSP]

Sheena:

I'd like to share with you my situation as it might provide you with an example of someone in a similar situation as yourself.

I obtained a degree in engineering and was working in that field for about 3 years. I realized that it was not what I wanted to be doing for the remainder of my working years. Deciding to go back to school in medicine was a difficult choice, especially since I had to take a leave of absence from work to take the prerequisite undergrade courses and write the MCAT. At this point I was 26.

When I did the financial comparison between continuing my current job versus going back to medical school, I learned that the "break-even" point was 15 years from the start of medical school. Medical school is most definitely not the way to get rich.

With a quick look at your situation, the fact that you can continue to work during the three years of undergrad, means that your break-even point is about 15-16 years from the the start of undergrad. But, it is not as bad as it may seem as there is financial aid available for medical students. Even if government aid is not available to you, medical students can easily obtain lines of credit up to $120K at a prime interest rate. This should be sufficient to carry you through the medical school years.

When you look at it, starting undergrad school at 30 means that your break-even point is 45. This means that you still have 20 years in which you'll be earning significantly more as a doctor than your current career. While at the same time, doing something that you love.

If you have a dream, work hard to make it happen. It may even be worth it to NOT work during undergrad so that you may fully devote yourself to school, volunteering, and possibly some research work - all of which will make you a strong applicant to medical school.

I am now 27 and just starting medical school. Best of luck.

PD

[me maniac]

Seonagh,

My situation is similar to yours. I also worked nights while doing my undergrad. Like your's, my job was professionally unfullfilling. I only worked so that we wouldn't have to give up the lifestyle we were used to. I have no debt going into medical school, which is great, but I should caution you: work as much as you can, without compromising your grades. If your grades are low, your chances of getting into med school are lower. There are a few things you should consider:

1) your drive and ambition. You obviously have been thinking about this. You need to determine if you are willing to undergo undergrad hardship to get where you want to be. What kept me going is thinking about the alternative - that is, continuing to work in a job that (in your words) were sucking the life out of me. Another thing that kept me going is something my husband said: do you want to be fifty years old thinking "I wish I would have, I know I could have." I did not want to be fifty years old and living a life I didn't enjoy. Besides, you are going to be fifty one day anyways, no matter what you do. Why not be fifty and doing what you love?

2) Spousal support. You will need the support of your spouse to see you through school. There is no point starting something if your marriage is going to fall apart while you are living out your dream. This support can make or break you because, as sure as you are about medical school, there WILL BE STRESSFUL MOMENTS!

3) Debt load. This should not play that much consideration into your decsion because there are lots of LOC's and student loan money available to you to finish medical school. I am giving up a $60K job to go back to school. I know that many of the younger med students think that money is a taboo subject, but WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD! Would I be doing it if I was making $50K at the end of my residency? NO! Some people may jump all over me, but the money you make as a physician does make a difference on whether you do it or not, at least it does if your 37 and already have a decent career. I figure if I specialize, I wouldn't even be working in my new career until I am 45. It doesn't make economical sense to start all over again if you are making less than what you started with. I know people say you shouldn't go into medicine for the money, and I agree with this. This should not be the primary reason one enters medicine. Having said that, your future salary plays a big part in your decision to go to med school or not. People who think that salary should make no difference are living in a La-La world. Would as many people be going to medical school if you had all this debt at the end only to make $50K/year? probably not. When you apply for any new job, the first thing you wonder is "how much does it pay?". Why should medicine be any different?

As a physician, you are making a great salary compared to the average Canadian. You should be able to pay down your debt faster than most students, and still have a decent standard of living after that. I wouldn't worry too much about the debt.

Of course, ultimately the decision is yours and your husbands. Yes, it will be economically hard. What will be harder is the stress and strain on you and your husband. If you have the first two points above, YOU WILL MAKE IT!

me

[macMDstudent]

Well stated, me maniac. I totally agree.

[me maniac]

macMDstudent,

WOW! you mean some body actually agrees with me? :lol Whooohooo! and all this time, people had been calling me a "rebel without a cause"! (or in my case, a rebel without a clue!) :D

me

[Lakers4life]

me maniac:

Does this mean that you won't be doing family meds? Why, not enough money for you? I may be living in 'la-la' land but I am glad that I am not as driven by money as you seem to be. What I don't get it is you are so determined to have a better salary when you are done why didn't you goto law school? or Denistry?

You say that 'why should meds be any differnet?', well that is b.c it is different. Do people become police officers for the money? Why is that profession different? B.c in this profession [police officer/meds and others] the public is putting thier utmost trust in you. They are putting their health in your hands. Hopefully this isn't just so that you can make a damn buck. Hopefully this is b.c you want that responsibility, irregardless of what you are paid.

You will be paid well in meds, no doubt. With the years of training, what else can you expect? For most of us that is hopefully the beg. and end of any discussion regarding money.

[thelaze]

Money and salary are valid points of discussion for people contemplating what is effectively a LIFELONG career.

It's great that some people are so well-adjusted that money is not a concern for them. Congratulations, I'm happy for you all.

But there is no call to act holier than thou over someone else's legitimate concern. Yes, yes, we know it's all so very unseemly to worry about money.

Stop jumping all over people who are perhaps more realistic if less saintly than you are.

[macMDstudent]

I consider the future of my children more important than my own personal situation. I want them to grow up in a nice environment, with plenty of opportunity and the chance to have an education themselves one day in whatever field they choose. For me not to ensure that I can provide that is completely irresponsible. To not be aware of it before giving up another career for something else would be foolhardy and affect more lives than my own. My kids would pay the price.

I agree that we should be assured that a good living is possible in medicine, but those of us with families have to quantify it before totally changing our lives and putting our children's future on the line.

[thelaze]

macMDstudent, I completely agree with you. Maturity and foresight such as yours makes those who see fit to slam people for thinking about their futures and the futures of their children seem all the more immature.

[seonagh]

Wow I started a bit of a debate. An interesting one at that. Thank you all for the great responses. You are all such a great help when it comes to putting the big decision in perspective.

I must say I'm so glad for the honest responses I received and the discussion we have going on here. I was somewhat worried I would get only "how dare you bring the topic of money into our discussion of this noble profession".

Lakers4life you do have a point on the responsibility and I totally agree that to become a Dr. only for the money would be irresponsible at best, not to mention unrealistic and possibly dangerous if you did not also have a desire to do the job well, keeping the interests of patients in mind. That said I don't see me maniac as driven by money like you say. Me Maniac, your realistic look at things reminds me that I CAN do this financially and have it make sense.

For those of us that are coming into this non-traditionally, this is a huge part of the decision. To gloss over the questions and doubts is pure folly. Many non-trad applicants like me are not deciding which career to get into when we choose medicine, we are deciding to give one up. We will spend a great deal of money on our dream at times when we, unlike younger applicants, have already committed to mortgages, children, spoused etc. We are also at a point where we have come to "live to our means" and asking if becoming a Dr. will irreversably reduce that means because of the debt load is not equivalent to being driven only by money. I myself have also to consider my husband that is used to a 2 income household and will be solely responsible for the bills while I attend Med school. To not consider how I will pay back the loans and how soon my financial life will normalise after school is reality for me. If I didn't want medicine for all of the higher reasons I wouldn't care enough to incur the debt and wouldn't be asking these questions. We have to pay for this dream and that is life.

I'm glad to see that many others have thought this through in the same ways I'm attempting to and even more elated that my confidence in the sanity of the decision has been reinforced.

thank you, me Maniac for your detailed response and taking the time to share your thoughts. Thank you also Lakers for heating up the debate. Please remember, though Lakers that many of us non-trad students and hopefuls have lived a decade or two of dreaming the dream all the while assuming that we couldn't afford it or that for whatever reason it was not possible. In light of this, when the pull of medicine gets strong enough to push you to make it happen, practicality simply has to be part of the puzzle.
Sheena

[Mens Rea]

Hey there seonagh, I took the liberty of running a financial model for the decision for you to go back to med school, (something we did alot of in MBA school).

I assumed your salary is 30,000, your Doctor salary will be 150,000 and you will borrow 10,000 per year of undergrad for three years and 20,000 per year for med school. I assumed a rate of 5% for the interest on your loans. The following is what the model spit out based on those assumptions:

I did it in excel so the formatting is really messed up now, but look at the bottom for an explanation

UNDERGRAD&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp MEDICAL SCHOOL&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp TOTAL INCOME LOST&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
Annual Income Lost&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
30,000 30,000 30,000 30,000 30,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 30,000 &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 30,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

DEBT&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
10,000 10,000 10,000 20,000 20,000 20,000 20,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

210,000 income lost

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 110,000 total debt&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
320,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Total Lost
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 5500 annual Interest@5%

Income as a Physician&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

150,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 150,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 150,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 150,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 150,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 150,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 150,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

Excess over previous salary&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

120,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 120,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 120,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 120,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 120,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 120,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 120,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

After Tax&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp income as physician&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

70,000 70,000 70,000 70,000 70,000 70,000 70,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 70,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 70,000

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
AFTER TAX PREVIOUS INCOME&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
26000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 26000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 26000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 26000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 26000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 26000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 26000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 26000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 26000

Excess over previous after tax&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
44,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 44,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 44,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 44,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 44,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 44,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 44,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 44,000&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 44,000
-5500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp -5500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp -5500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp -5500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp -5500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp -5500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp -5500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp -5500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp -5500

Excess net income after interest&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

38,500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 38,500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 38,500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 38,500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 38,500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 38,500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 38,500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 38,500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 38,500&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp


THE ANSWER
9 years to break even upon completing Medical school including recovering all the lost wages from your 30,000 a year job, plus repayment of the loans and the interest&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
4 years to breakeven from loans, interest

So under the assumption that you will practice for 25 years you will have 16 years of practicing after you have broken even from lost wages and payment of loans. Sounds good, from a financial perspective. I say go for it :)

Good Luck &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

[seonagh]

Very cool approach Mens Rea.

I like it. You are adding fuel to the fire especially since I don't the the smoulder would have ever gone away even if the numbers didn't make sense and the smoke was starting to hurt my eyes :D
Sheena

[me maniac]

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/p/2talk.gif

See what I mean? Everytime that taboo subject is mentioned (shhhhh... I'm talking about money http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/2/salook.gif ) someone jumps up and down, thinking they are the only one that is truly interested in the practice of medicine. http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/a0/dckix.gif I have been in the medical field for the past 10 years, and yes, people put their health in my hands. I already have lots of responsibility in my job, regardless of what I get paid. So do other healthcare professionals. In those years, I have seen death, rape victims, kids that have been intentionally burned by their parents, and other things that would make people re-consider a career in medicine. If I were not dedicated enough to want to do more for these people, I would not have chosen to go into medicine. I'm going to enjoy what I will be doing after med school. If that means I earn more money than other people, so be it.

I have already gone to school for previous career. I then put myself through undergrad. I raised two kids, had a mortgage, had parental and professional responsibilities, and ran a business. I don't know about your situation, but I am damn proud of what I've accomplished and how I accomplished it. After residency, I will deserve every penny of what I earn. And to answer to first question, no I won't be doing family medicine, not because of the money (after all, it would be more than what I make now), but rather because I would not find it fullfilling enough. I have a specialty that I am interested in because of my first career, thank you very much (not that it should be your concern what I do for a living). I won't knock your choice to be a GP if that's what makes you happy, please don't knock mine. To answer your next question, I never considered law or denistry because I have no interest in them.

Your idea that a meds career is in a class all by itself is a good indication that you think other healthcare professionals are beneath them (here, I'm also referring to your comment about the Chiro-turned-med-student in the other thread. In that thread, you also stated your humble opinion and then ended by saying "Let's not waste this forum on this topic so let this be the end of the discussion". Please don't start something you cannot finish.http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/k0/smashfreak.gif ). I know alot of healthcare professional that have the same goal as doctors - that is, to help their patients cope with their health or loss. Hats off to them.

Ultimately, it is a personal decision as to what salary/career would make you happy. You choose your's and I'll choose mine. Thanks for the input though.


http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/950/lamer.gif

[seonagh]

I like you, meManiac!
Sheena;)

[EMHC]

This is a very interesting discussion we're having here.

Well, although I may not be where some of you are already where you've already started a career and have a family and have experienced other great things in life yet (I'm 18), but I totally agree with what you're saying about money and practicing medicine. It is important for us to understand that as much as we should go into a profession for interest, fulfillment and other intrinsic matters. It is, however, important for us to understand the practical reasons for doing anything. Lakers4life, you said that a person going into medicine or law enforcement (you said to be a police officer) should be in it for the responsibility and trust the public places into your hands. Well, you can't survive on public trust and responsibility. The monetary compensation in medicine compensates for the opportunity cost that a medical student must accrue throughout their years in undergrad and medical school.

I'm doing a commerce major (Yeah, i've heard it a million times, "Why do you want to be a doctor anyway!) and if I persue medical school, I am going to lose out on the financial side of things even up to the years I'm in residency, when comparing to my friends and classmates >: (but hey, think long term). Yes, I agree that dentistry and law are other careers that can bring in the buck, but why some of us choose medicine because of the intrinsic rewards and the salary that comes with it. Can another career out there match the combination that we want, I think not.

Money may not be the number one reason for doing medicine but it is one of the reasons on the list.

EMHC

[Mens Rea]

Hey Me Maniac its like watching a movie with all those neat emoticons. Totally cool!!!!!!


Seonagh: by going to med school and finishing in the 16 years you practice after you break even from lost wages (during the schooling years) and loans + interest, you will make a profit of are you ready for this 2.4million - 480,000 = $1.9 million dollars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! over staying in your job that pays 30,000 per year, assuming you make 150,000 as a doctor. Wow what an investment.

The only catch is you have to get accepted, else those years of undergrad loans and lost wages will never be recouped if you wind up back in the 30,000 a year job.

But its a pretty sweet deal, I must say. If you have the courage to start, you have the courage to succeed :)

Take Care
Mike

(I hope my nerdy number crunching 8o has helped motivate you )

[Lakers4life]

First off the problem I expressed with chiro's was the fact that their maintenance therapy was not based on EBM and yet many continued to book pts for long term followup. I am not sure if you, me maniac, is in med school right now but I doubt everyone in your class feels that my point is way off. I know many many people that also hold my view.

I have great respect for the many OT/PT/Nurses, etc. that also work alongisde us in the health care industry, but chiro is differnet in that it is an alternative form of meds. Sure, spinal maniuplation works in the short term. But so do other things, and of course there is no EBM for long term followup. Whatever, I don't see what that has to do with money anyways.

I realize that most of you are non-trad. grads and for you this is likely a different situation. You do have real life concerns like a family to look after and money obviously means more to you than it does to someone entering at the age of 21. For that I apologize, since I didn't take into account some of your unqiue concerns. Still, all this talk about money kinda makes me feel uncomfortable. I could have easily made a lot more money doing something else [the adcoms even brought this up during the interview] but I guess as along as I know that I will make a decent living that is cool with me. I know that most of you likely have similar visions and don't neccessarily want the big house and fancy cars, so hopefully we can move away from discussing money and onto other, mroe exicting parts of the medical profession.

[me maniac]

Actually, I think you said chiros were not real doctors, and I quote

Let's not pollute this thread by talking about chiro's as real doctors...save that discussion for another thread where maybe we don't acknowledge EBM exists.

As far as others in med school with the same view as yours, I wonder who's paying for their education? Some of us don't have the luxury of having Mommy and Daddy paying for our education as well as trips to Europe during the summer. http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/a0/baby.gif And yes, money probably does mean more to someone in their late thirties than to someone who is 21. http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/950/bore.gif Afterall, we've already gone through the stage where, in the ideal world, money is no object (and we thought we could save the whole world). We also have kids to support and I'll be damned if I sacrifice their growing up years so I can go off to play doctor. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that the talk of money makes people uncomfortable. But reality is, we don't very far without at least a little bit off it, otherwise all you do-gooders would donate all of your money to some charitable organization. http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/u/angel.gif On the other hand, we could all work at MacDonalds if money and career were not important to us.

Oh, BTW, I'd like to know how many other careers have the same earning potential as medical doctors. A few, maybe. I know lawyers who only make $50K/yr. Even a professor holding a PhD - who, BTW, has undergone as many years of education (grad school, post docs, fellowships) as MD's that make a whole lot less than their MD counterparts.

As far as visions of big houses and fancy cars, I am giving up those to go back to school. Sorry, buddy. Been there done that.

[fox]

This whole discussion of money is bothering me. I used to think I didn't care about money and would never take a job because of it. Now I find myself realizing the value of a dollar and how it doesn't go very far.... I finished a Master's and have put eight years into school so far, and I would make less working in my field than I do now working as a secretary. I can barely live off this salary. How can I even contemplate having a family if I can barely live myself? I don't think there is any shame in wanting to make a good living doing something you love. I think that's the key here- you have to do what you love, and for me, as for memaniac and others, it is medicine. It is definitley a myth that doctors make a lot of money (some areas, anyway). And after putting all that time into school and being in debt 125K, I think money should be taken into consideration when choosing your profession/specialty. Having said that, money should not be one's sole motivation for practicing medicine, but that idea has not been put forth by anyone who has expressed concern about going into debt. I cringe at the idea of owing 125K in four years from now, and I don't have near the responsibilities that others have! Congrats to everyone who has gotten accepted and is taking a big leap of faith and leaving a career while they are raising a family. If you have the motivation to go through all that school to become a physician, you should be rewarded enough in a financial sense to live a comfortable life and raise a family.

[Lakers4life]

Yes I did say that they are not real doctors; real doctors goto medical school. They are chiro's, and they are as much doctors as the PhD's; they are doctors by title, not by profession.

As for your talk about money, not all of us have the luxary you describe. Numerous other classmates, will be over 100k in debt upon graduation. I haven't spent a summer travelling since I was 14; been busy working to help pay off the debt.

As for other jobs with the same earning potential, I can name a few: denstiry, chiro, law, MBA, comp. engineering, Acutary science, pilot, Accountant, etc.

If you call doing 4 yrs of meds plus a 6-8 yr residency [b.c to qualify for the top money you need a specialist designation] then its over 10 years of training. Hardly seems the ideal way to get rich.

I am not a do-gooder who intends to donate everything to charity, but I am not somoene who thinks this is a way to get rich. We all expect fair compensation for what we do, and we will get it.

Clearly we come from different environments; I don't have a family and I don't have many expenses. The money I have saved up for the past 5-6 years has let me pay for med school and also let me keep a little bit on the side to save up. I won't be in debt when I graduate, not b.c someone handed me money but b.c I worked for it. I could imagine that if I had a family to support with bills pilling up I would be far more concerned with finances. You said that you gave up everything to come to med school, I am not sure if I would have done the same in your situation. Its hard to start over when you have responsibilty.

You didn't mention if you were in meds yet, but I assume that you are. I would just caution you that engaging in discussions with your classmates about money [other than to complain about your debt] isn't going to get you a lot of friends. I know there are a lot of other people that also feel uncomfortable discussing money.

[MDbadly]

Wow, I must say, 21 and heading to meds, Brilliant!!! But there's still room for growth.

It's concerning for me to think that you as a future doctor do not believe in any form of follow-up care. Your comments about chiros and other posts always end with wanting to move on to something else, which you have started.

I'm not a chiro and not even a chiro student, after all, I'm most interested in medicine but some of your comments seems a bit narrow-minded. Your comment about "chiros not being real doctors" is so old. Most chiros don't even care about the "Dr.." and would prefer if you address them on a first name bases. I think it's hard for you (and sometimes me to believe, since I'm myself get all caught up in meds) that there are other worthy and satisfying health careers out there besides meds.

me Maniac, said it sooo well!!! Who's thinking about money when mommy and daddy is paying for everything.

It would be nice to have the money provided for you to go through med school, graduate, and volunteer your services to help the world and not worry about anything. Sign me up, who doesn't dream of this. Unfortunately, for some this is not a reality.

One other question, would it also be wrong of me (oh no, another taboo!) to think that medicine is a highly respected career and I wouldn't mind having this bonus that comes with the territory?

[me maniac]

Real doctors? http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/b0/pray.gif This is surely elitism at it's finest!

If you call doing 4 yrs of meds plus a 6-8 yr residency [b.c to qualify for the top money you need a specialist designation] then its over 10 years of training. Hardly seems the ideal way to get rich.

We all expect fair compensation for what we do, and we will get it.

Thank you for clarifying that meds is not a get rich quick scheme.

You said that you gave up everything to come to med school, I am not sure if I would have done the same in your situation. Its hard to start over when you have responsibilty.

Thank you also for acknowledging the fact that others may have monetary concerns, even if their classmates don't. No, not everyone would do what I'm doing - that's why I have to consider everything if I'm serious about doing it.

I would just caution you that engaging in discussions with your classmates about money [other than to complain about your debt] isn't going to get you a lot of friends. I know there are a lot of other people that also feel uncomfortable discussing money.

Thanks again for the advice, but I already have a lot of friends - ones that I can talk to, even about uncomfortable matters - without them jumping down my throat that I'm going into meds solely for the money just because I am concerned about it.

[me maniac]

MDBadly,

No, I don't think it's veeeeeery bad to want that respect. As a matter of fact, I'd still respect you (in the morning) - Sorry! couldn't resist adding that in! http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/k/eyebrow.gif


me http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/r/dance.gif[Automated by GetSmile]

ps. I hope you are a boy-type MDBadly!

[Sarah371]

Just to add my two cents worth....Doctor as in educator, teacher, fixer and HEALER.....much more broad than just MD don't ya think :)

Main Entry: 1doc·tor
Pronunciation: 'däk-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English doctour teacher, doctor, from Middle French & Medieval Latin; Middle French, from Medieval Latin doctor, from Latin, teacher, from docEre to teach -- more at DOCILE
Date: 14th century
1 a : an eminent theologian declared a sound expounder of doctrine by the Roman Catholic Church -- called also doctor of the church b : a learned or authoritative teacher c : a person who has earned one of the highest academic degrees (as a PhD) conferred by a university d : a person awarded an honorary doctorate (as an LLD or Litt D) by a college or university
2 a : one skilled or specializing in healing arts; especially : a physician, surgeon, dentist, or veterinarian who is licensed to practice b : MEDICINE MAN
3 a : material added (as to food) to produce a desired effect b : a blade (as of metal) for spreading a coating or scraping a surface
4 : a person who restores or repairs things


Kudos to all who chose to go back and to discuss things that are difficult......it is often easier to see your way through a problem if you can rely on the experience of those who have gone before

My two cents for what it is worth.....personally I am very happy that I will always be able to look after myself and my family financially. Whether or not we want to admit it we all see it as a plus of chosing medicine as a career.

SARAH

[MDbadly]

me Maniac, too bad you are married! Oh well, I guess we will settle for a hot fling in med school (that is, if I ever get in).

Hey me Maniac, judging from a few posts (and thankfully only a few) I guess the question is if you would respect me if I become a chiro or something else if I can't become a real doctor?

just kidding,

Take care! And best wishes on your path to a new career.

[me maniac]

Did someone say "HOT FLING"???!!!! Hmmmm.....:D

And yes, I'd still respect you if you were a chiro or something else, but be forwarned, if you become a "real" doctor I might want to share your salary (I'm money driven, don't you know!). But can we still have the hot fling?!!! (oh, oh, I'm starting to sound easy - BUT I'M NOT CHEAP! )

Good luck and I hope you get in!

me

Edited to say this thread has gotten waaaaaaaaaay off topic!

[Lakers4life]

Whatevea...if you all think that Chiros earn the title of doctor jsut as much as those in medical school, thats your business. But there are plenty of people, like me that will disagree. I know Western Meds ran a 'Jackass' style skit about it but it was never shown due b.c it was taken as being too offensive. Again, a topic that is not discussed [kinda like money] in med school, but we all have our own opinons. I think everyone respects chiros for what they are, whether we choose to call them 'doctors' by profession [as opposed to by title] is another story.

Me Maniac which med school are you going too? Since you have a family are you going to be living at home and commutting? Just wondering b.c there are quite a few people in my class that commute from way far out.

[j282]

The old "we are @#%$ awseome, everyone else sucks" mentality is alive and well in med school.

20 something year old bratty kids going around laughing at highly trained health professionals who have been working for 20 or more years. I'm sure they would appreciate watching a jackass style video on the profession that they have worked so hard in, staged by some pimple faced kids from UWO who finally have a chance to be cool within their geeks rule world of med school.

Well to some in that video, let's say I know much more than I should but.......what are your thoughts on future doctors who have weight issues, maybe some of those ungly lardy fat asses in the video should think about that:smokin

[Lakers4life]

Huh? Sorry I don't know much about the Western thing other than what I have heard throught he grapevine. I think it had something to do with chiros and the whole fake doc thing but I don't know details about it. It was ment to be funny though...I can't commetn on its approriateness without knowing more...just stating that I doubt I am the only one who thinks that chiros are the same as those who graduate from med school.

[Ian Wong]

Please stay professional folks. Thanks,

Ian

[therealcrackers]

j282,

your comments are unprofessional and totally out of line. Apologies are in order, especially since my acne cleared up at 16. And you want to be a doctor someday?

[strider2004]

I have a real problem with people who somehow feel that the title 'doctor' is somehow only deserved by the priviledged few. I have a friend who thought that speech pathologists didn't belong in the Faculty of Medicine and that really ticked me off as well.
The term 'doctor' is meant to signify that you are a specialist in your field of study. Doctor of medicine, Doctor of Chiropractic, Doctor of Philosophy - everyone has their areas of study. Every field has its own limited scope and to assume that the term 'doctor' should only apply to MDs is hogwash.

Evidence based medicine is also a poor veil to hide behind. It's only been in favour for the past 15 years or so so the medical field shouldn't gloat about being the first ones to use it. Everyone else will catch up in due time. There are still many many practices in medicine (and I'm talking about internal medicine) that haven't held up to the rigours of EBM. A lot of our treatments are still theoretical but we use them anyway. Using Mannitol with increased ICP? I don't think anybody has ever done a trial on it but it sure sounds like it would work and it's definitely taught in med school. Use of beta blockers in heart failure? Everyone thought it was a no-no but hey, a hundred clinical trials later and gosh, it might help afterall!

Remember that a hundred years ago, surgeons weren't real 'doctors' either. They were just barbers or butchers who had a good grasp of anatomy. In fact, surgery was considered beneath the real 'doctors'. Now is not the time to turn on other professionals and ridicule them for not catching onto the EBM craze early enough. We should be patient enough to wait for them to play catch-up. I know some chiros who are more deserving of the title 'doctor' than some MDs.

[monksters]

Hi Lakers4life,

If EBM is what makes medicine, medicine, then we have only had this profession for the last 15 years or so.. because prior to that there was very little understanding about evidence and absolutely no understanding about systematic reviews. Prior to Archie Cochrane's push for RCT's and systematic reviews, many physician's relied very much on clinical experience. You would be suprised at how much we use in clinical medicine that has very little evidence. Bone Marrow Density for instance is commonly used as a measure to determine the extent of osteopenia or osteoperosis. Yet, it correlates very little with clinical outcome.

True there are many RCT's but quality peer reviewed RCT's are still in their premature state. And merely because Chiro's do not currently rely on EBM does not discount them as doctors.. they in fact are clinicians (doctors) of a different sort whereas PhD's are Scientists.

just my 2 cents.

[Lakers4life]

Obviosuly the term doctor by title applies to everyone with a doctorate. But to be a doctor by profession means you went to med school. Dentists are called dentists. Chiro's are called chiro's. Whne a patient walks into a hospital they want to see a doctor. When they go to get a tooth pulled they want to see a dentist. Sure the dentist is a doctor, but their profession is dentistry.

One of the things I hate about med school is how PC everyone tries to be...even though there are quite a few people that are honest, there are even more that try to be totally PC about every issue that comes up.

[me maniac]

Lakers4Life,

I have been accepted at UBC, but my hope is that I will be accepted by u of c from their waitlist. I had originally planned on commuting to Van on the weekends (I currently live about 3 hours away), but my older son (he's 7) was already having anxiety attacks about the separation (so was I, actually). Besides, by the time we maintained two residences in two different cities and added about $500 per month for travel, we really weren't saving any money. We have now decided, no matter where I go to school, it is better for us to stay together as a family unit.

What school do you go to? Do the long distance commuters in your school only see their families on weekends? Do those students then miss out on all the social events that meds have? Curious to see how others have done it.

me

[strider2004]

When a person walks into a hospital with chest pain, they want to see a cardiologist, not a pediatrician. When they've broken a hip, they want to see an orthopedic surgeon, not an ophthalmologist. Every 'doctor' has their own specialty and they should be treated as such.

[Lakers4life]

Strider: Point taken that all specialists are referred to by their sub-speciality, but you have seen that Seinfeld where they take about the podiatrist not being a real doctor...same thing with chiros...can't aruge with Seinfeld!

Me Maniac:

I know a couple that did relocate the entire family but some are commuting [one guy from Hamilton, which is about 90mins from Toronto!]. As such, they do not attend any social events, probably also b.c they have a family waiting at home. MOst of these people are well liked though and do have a lot of friends, but they just don't join any school clubs or come out to class parties, etc. However, they are involved more with the academic side including being clerkship reps and stuff like that.

I don't know how much they acutally miss in terms of the whole med school experience. But they seem pretty happy with it and some people plan on staying home even through clerkship.

Happy Fathers day to me Maniac and all the other father's on this board...enjoy the day!

[Jerika81]

Lakers4life- you committed the ultimate non-PC crime! Assuming me maniac is a male!
Just jokes, but I'm pretty sure me maniac is a mother, not a father.

[Lakers4life]

Doh....you know what...I am totally guilty of that one...just the vibe I got, don't know why b.c there re more girls than guys in my class so odds are, she would be female if she were in meds anyways!

Sorry about that...now had a seen a picture...lol...

[me maniac]

Hey, Jerika81,

You are correct. I is a mother (at least last time I looked I was).

Lakers,

BTW, how old are you??

From personal experience during undergrad, I don't feel like I missed out on the undergrad experience. I am just into more than bar-hopping (although I managed to do some of that as well! http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/x/beer.gif ).
As a matter of fact, some of my friends did not enjoy their undergrad years, but I really wanted to get something out of it AND enjoy it at the same time. Life is too short to do something you don't like (especially since that was the reason for going back to school in the first place.)

Don't know if it was intentional or not, but your comment seemed to suggest that just because people have a life (ie commitments) outside of med school, that they can't have a lot of friends or be popular in class. Just to let you know, we can be popular too (afterall, were still normal, well adjusted people)!

OK a pix is worth a thousand words, right?......

I am about 4 ft 5 in. I weigh about 350lbs. I have flaming red hair and a missing tooth. But, of course, that may not bother you as much as my humpback or my cyclops eye in the middle of my forehead. Other than that, I am a normal, well adjusted person.

So you didn't tell me what school you go to?

me

[Lakers4life]

Hey sorry about that me maniac,

No acutally some of the coolest and most popular people in my class are older and often commute a lot. I was just saying that they tend not to go out to a lot of class events and socials, but not that they aren't popular or don't have many friends. In fact, a lot of our class elections [which are populatiry contests] are won by people who are older and live farther away. I didn't even run!

We have a few mothers in the class [and fathers] and they add a lot to the discussions; instead of focusing just on the medicine they bring up other stuff about family life, etc. that you may not think of on your own.

I am 23 and just finished up 2nd year at the UofT...I would also describe myself but I doubt that it could top your description, so as Homer S. says, 'can't win don't try'.

[UWOMED2005]

Man, lakers4life. . . wait until you get to clerkship next september and find people from all the health professions, some of them working since before you were born, doing the things you're supposed to be the expert about better than you. Yeah, I've read through Dubin a bunch of times, and written a multiple choice test with a few EKGs on it. But stepping into the emerg department of the hospital I'm at for the summer last week, I must admit some of the nurses were reading them way better than I do. That's to be expected, doing that day in day out for 10 years. Same goes for X-ray techs with X-rays.

Of course as I continue with my studies I hope that changes. . . it better, as both professionals, despite being correct in their analysis, had to ask an MD physician to read the EKG/Xray for final analysis.

[Glendyn]

Going to med school just means you become a physician, while a dentistry student is a dentist, but you both have the Dr. designation (neither is any more legit). In U.K. some physicians don't have an MD but rather a bachelor of Medicine, but are still physicians.
Don't forget an MD is still considered an undergraduate degee.

[Lakers4life]

You mean and MBBS degree. Again, I was pointing out the difference between a doctor by title vs. by profession. You don't say I am going to my doctor to get my tooth pulled. You do say that I am going to my doctor to have my physical this year.

[UWOMED2005]

No, you go to a PHYSICIAN to get your physical each year. And you go to a SURGEON to remove the mass the PHYSICIAN finds. :D Dentists, Chiropractors, Physicians, Surgeons (except in Britain where they're Mr.,) History Professors, Clinical Psychologists, Optometrists and John Ralston Saul are all doctors. But only those with an MD can become a physician or surgeon.

Don't succumb to the language of the plebeian masses!! :b

[MDbadly]

Lakers4life,
Off course, you wouldn't say i'm going to get my tooth pulled at the doctor's office but i'm going to my dentist. But what would you say when you called to book an appointment at the dentist's office or when the receptionist answers the phone. "Dr. Smith's office" and not dentist Smith's office, correct me if i'm wrong.
Just as you would say, i'm going to see my chiropractor and not my doctor.
What's with the hang-ups about by profession. Dentists are dentists, chiros are chiros by profession with their own limited scope of practice. They are not MDs and yes only MDs go to med school just like chiros go to chiro school and dentist goes to dental schools.

Sorry for the overly simple and spelled-out response but I don't see the point about going on and on ..... about by profession.

[cclau]

Lakers4life -- nope, MD is considered an undergraduate degree in most universities even it's called "Doctor of Medicine"......Most schools put it under "undergraduate education" if you go visit their websites.

[Lakers4life]

Its called an undergrad degree b.c you can get into medical school without holding a degree. So, you cannot make it a graduate degree if there are people in the program that don't hold any undergrad degrees.

Hardly anyone says they are going to see their physician; everyone says doctor by and large. Anyways, this is getting pointless.

[marbledust]

There was a poster on the student doctor network forums a while back who kept arguing that doctors should be the only people at the hospital allowed to wear scrubs because they were "doctors' clothing." This thread kind of reminds me of that :eek

[quebecboy]

OMG Lakers4life! I think you're right! If I go to work in south america, I'll no longer be a doctor, I'll be a "médico"! :eek What shall I do? :rolleyes


Quebecboy

[Lakers4life]

I hafta admit I learned this from Seinfeld...and no doubt those writers are a lot smarter that us so it must be the truth...doctors goto med school.

[strider2004]

Would you go to Dr Evil for a checkup? I mean, he went to Evil medical school and all...

I think this thread really is much ado about nothing. But hopefully, people don't choose medical school just so people can call them 'doctor'.

[Sil]

My mom calls her dentist doctor all the time. I often ask her which doctor is she talking about, the one that gaver her a physical or the one that fixed her teeth.

[quebecboy]

doctors goto med school. So then, dentists or optometrists, or even osteopaths that do orthopedic surgery day in, day out, but didn't go to med school aren't docs? :rolleyes . They sure as heck worked as hard as MD's to get their diplomas, and are as devoted to their patients as any MD. And my genetics teacher who did a post-doctoral degree during who knows how many years isn't a doctor, but the med student who was taught by him is?

Quebecboy

[Lakers4life]

Man...didn't know this was such a serious topic with everyone. Sure everyone is a doctor, but not everyone is referred to as being a doctor.

quebecboy: Are as devoted as any MD? Work as hard as any MD? You wanna go ask a family doc up North if they agree with that statement?

[strider2004]

This is a touchy subject for everyone because the idea of MDs being the only real doctors is very exclusionary. There shouldn't be any reason NOT to call anybody who has earned their doctorate, doctor. I always called my friends' parents 'Dr (insert surname here)' if they were MDs, PhDs, whatever.
I only have a problem with the 'doctor' term - if people try to overstep their area of expertise. If a PhD in English Lit goes on tv and starts selling a diet pill as a 'doctor', then I get upset. Otherwise, why shouldn't a health professional who has earned their doctorate deserve that title and be called by that title? In the hospital, I get called doctor all the time and officially, I have as much of an MD as a chiropractor or dentist.

I was trying hard to think of a good analogy and I've finally found one that might work. I'm a Canadian citizen. I immigrated here when I was 2 years old and was sworn in when I was 8. However, some people would say that I'm not Canadian. I'm just an immigrant. A true Canadian is born and bred here in Canada. There are many ways(ok probably 2) to get to be a canadian but in the end, it's the same result. Right? See how this could be a issue?

[quebecboy]

The thing is, yes the majority of MD's are devoted, regardless if they work up north or in the big cities, but I doubt that a dentist (in this case residing up north), just because he's a dentist and doesn't hold the title MD, would not be as devoted to his patients than the MD.

[Mimicat65]

Someone graduating from dental school gets a diploma that says:

John(Jane) Doe, DDS.
DDS stands for Doctor of Dental Surgery..... sounds like an appropriate "Dr" title to me.;)


Edited to say: BTW, this board is starting to sound alot like SDN, don't you think:lol :lol :lol

[Lakers4life]

DDS = doctor of dental surgery...wow...never knew that...have I once said that dentists are not doctors by title? I ment by profession [ie - the public doesn't say I am seeing my doctor, they say dentist.]

Watch the Seinfeld episode if you don't understand the difference b/w by profession and by title.

[Lakers4life]

Thanks for your vote of confidence...anyways hopefully we can put this thread to rest...clearly my opinion is in the minority, so I must be wrong and admit that.

[Ian Wong]

Agreed. I deleted some personal attacks from the tail end of this thread after things really began to break down.

Ian

[j282]

Sorry Ian:

I just realized how that could seem as a personal attack. Sorry about that, I'm actually in Laker4lifes class, I was just describing him to see if was the same person in my class, who often subscribes to the "hieracrchy in medicine"